B vitamins may have 'protective effect' against air pollution

[Eduardo M]

B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

[Bob Officer]

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.

Cite from above article:
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."

So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.

Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.

They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?

Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.

A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.

That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

[Duncan]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.


--
Duncan

"Consensus is not a scientific term. It is a political term." (Ed. The
Climate Skeptics (TCS) Blog)

[BOB] "I stand by what I said in context. A belief is
something held true with or without supporting
evidence or in the face of contradictory evidence.

An opinion is based on what one thinks and not what
one believes. Ones religion is what one believes.
Religion requires no thinking and in many cases
Religion forbids thinking.

While you might believe their are interchangeable
synonyms, I think if you asked an expert in the
English Language they might agree with me. The
words have different meanings and uses."
--------

">I didn't know there was a requirement to generate topics. Where did

Post by Bob Officer
you get that idiotic idea from. " -- Bob Officer

DK: Bob Officer is a member of the group I
DK; accurately describe as...
PSEUDO-SKEPTIC-FANATICS (PSF)
http://www.psicounsel.com/bobofficer.html

[Bob Officer]

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

[Duncan]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.
What we're talking about is commonsense.
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?
Does the government?
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?



--
Duncan

[BOB] "I stand by what I said in context. A belief is
something held true with or without supporting
evidence or in the face of contradictory evidence.

An opinion is based on what one thinks and not what
one believes. Ones religion is what one believes.
Religion requires no thinking and in many cases
Religion forbids thinking.

While you might believe their are interchangeable
synonyms, I think if you asked an expert in the
English Language they might agree with me. The
words have different meanings and uses."
--------

">I didn't know there was a requirement to generate topics. Where did

Post by Bob Officer
you get that idiotic idea from. " -- Bob Officer

DK: Bob Officer is a member of the group I
DK; accurately describe as...
PSEUDO-SKEPTIC-FANATICS (PSF)
http://www.psicounsel.com/bobofficer.html

[Lu]

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.
What we're talking about is commonsense.
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

You would make a lousy politician, carole. You like to talk around an issue
without ever getting to the point or answering the questions asked of you.
Tell us Carole. Do you know what a proper diet is?

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

Yes.

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Because this is a free country.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.

It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

To take a page out of your own book, this is where I get to say:
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

[Mo Onions]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
Cite from above article: "Ten volunteers were tested
initially exposed to clean air while given a placebo to
measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to
air containing high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean
environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a
dirty environment.
They changed two variables at once. Where is the control
group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response, it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no
placebo to set a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a
second baseline. Then the group was split into three
different groups in the dirty air and one group given
nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group
given the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline
and the control group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat
what others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

Or she's just a blimping idiot?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob. They like to talk around an issue
without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do
you double down?

She thinks holding her ground on a lie makes her a tough honcho?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is
achieved by making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited
and the test as done has little on no value, because it was not
properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a
test? We are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper.
Did you read the article in citation? I found fault with the method
and practices of people doing the testing and took exception with the
papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common sense nor do you use it.

She likes to align herself with "common sense," thinking it gives her
additional credibility, as she favors the unwashed masses and disfavors
educational accomplishment?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always
able to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it? Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease
symptoms with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional
science. I just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort
of medical,advice, simply because you do not understand what you
are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even
bigger profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't
have to produce any proof of effectiveness.

She discounts profit/loss statements as too much like her voodoo
doll of J.D. Rockefeller?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

Big time.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they
keep putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits
of alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure
cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of
tartar a nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least
understanding of biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time
you post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we
would be drunk all the time.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about
testing. Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective
against disease -- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't
Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible, because everyone is different.

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for
profit business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not
stock stuff which people do not buy or want.
To take a page out of your own book, this is where I get to say: So
what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold
in grocery stores?
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but
they sell only what people will buy. Yesterday, I had to go three
different stores to find beets and rhubarb.

I've had a difficult time finding raw beets at they local grocers lately
as well. Bad crop this year?

Post by Bob Officer
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook
more often now I am retired.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
Cite from above article: "Ten volunteers were tested
initially exposed to clean air while given a placebo to
measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to
air containing high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean
environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a
dirty environment.
They changed two variables at once. Where is the control
group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response, it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no
placebo to set a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a
second baseline. Then the group was split into three
different groups in the dirty air and one group given
nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group
given the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline
and the control group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat
what others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

Or she's just a blimping idiot?

I wonder how sane she is at times. Maybe she has burned most her brain
cells by drinking too much. She has confessed to drinking so much too often
she had to take drugs to get by.

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob. They like to talk around an issue
without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do
you double down?

She thinks holding her ground on a lie makes her a tough honcho? After
questioning her citation rather than defend her use of the citation she
attacks me? For questioning authority of the citation, rather than except the status quo.

Isn't that exactly what she accuses me of doing? Accepting the status quo?

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is
achieved by making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited
and the test as done has little on no value, because it was not
properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a
test? We are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper.
Did you read the article in citation? I found fault with the method
and practices of people doing the testing and took exception with the
papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common sense nor do you use it.

She likes to align herself with "common sense," thinking it gives her
additional credibility, as she favors the unwashed masses and disfavors
educational accomplishment?

Common sense isn't very common I found. What most people have called common
sense is not often factual or correct. I used the term for most of what
passes as common sense as common nonsense.

I just finished teaching a series of weekend classes on EmComm. I have a
pile of final tests to grade. And should finish them up. 101 questions. The
101st question was one which doesn't count for the grade, but it was a
question on how well they felt they scored on the test. Sort of my own
little Kruger and Dunning data gathering.

So far most didn't come close to guessing their score. All have passed but
not as high as they thought.

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always
able to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it? Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease
symptoms with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional
science. I just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort
of medical,advice, simply because you do not understand what you
are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even
bigger profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't
have to produce any proof of effectiveness.

She discounts profit/loss statements as too much like her voodoo
doll of J.D. Rockefeller?

One of the things I saw years ago were reported on cost per unit versus
profit per unit versus consumer cost per unit.

The cost of making a new mid priced sedan was then about 8,000 and the MSRP
was about 17,000 the consumer would pay dealer prep and transportation
costs plus taxes.

The price per unit of one of little homeopathic teething pills is about
.0001 cents. The bottle/vial and labeling actually cost more than the of
pills and homeopathic remedy. The profit per unit for homeopathic remedies
is over 10,000 times the cost of manufacturing, bottling and
transportation.

That make the manufacturing of homeopathic remedies one of the most
profitable of all enterprises. For the manufacturer the ROI is fantastic,
and they are not required to do any testing. Best of all,they have idiots
like Carole making all the claims they can't make and can't not be held
responsible for any results of taking those sugar pills.

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

Big time.

And it has been explained with validating data from all over the world. She
refuses to accept any information which runs counter to her belief system.
A true Morton's demon. Lives inside her head.

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they
keep putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits
of alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure
cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of
tartar a nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least
understanding of biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time
you post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we
would be drunk all the time.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about
testing. Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective
against disease -- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't
Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible, because everyone is different.

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for
profit business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not
stock stuff which people do not buy or want.
To take a page out of your own book, this is where I get to say: So
what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold
in grocery stores?
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but
they sell only what people will buy. Yesterday, I had to go three
different stores to find beets and rhubarb.

I've had a difficult time finding raw beets at they local grocers lately
as well. Bad crop this year?

Locally it has been to rainy. Root crop need drainage and since California
no the coastal valleys seems to supply about 70% of winter veggies to the
US. We have had more rain this year and it looks to be a record breaker so
far.

Fits with global warming no matter what the cause. More warm water puts
more water vapor into the air. More water vapor means more rain in the high
latitudes during the winter months. More warm water also expands the
climate belts towards the pole. The question is what happens to the
equatorial belt, will it turn arid and more wet?

Post by Mo Onions

Post by Bob Officer
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook
more often now I am retired.

Sliced up nearly the last of falls butternut squash last night and cooked
it down for soup. 3/4 goes into the freezer and the rest we have tonight.
We add a little cumin and pepper and other spices makes a tasty soup.
Pulled pork, and a salad. And we have a very filling dinner for a couple.
The meal is balanced nicely with high fiber from the squash, which also
supplies some slow to digest carbs, as does the salad, which is made with
romain lettuce, sliced turnips, radishes, tomatoes, green onions, sweet
yellow bell peppers topped with a yogurt based dressing and sliced mild
jalapeños peppers.

Dinner is in just about 45 minutes.

[Duncan]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.

"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.

Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."

That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.

I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.




--
Duncan

"Consensus is not a scientific term. It is a political term." (Ed. The
Climate Skeptics (TCS) Blog)

Post by Bob Officer
[BOB] "Beliefs are not opinions."
I think you will find that "belief" is a synonym for "opinion".
So WTF are you trying to say idiot?

[BOB] "I stand by what I said in context. A belief is
something held true with or without supporting
evidence or in the face of contradictory evidence.

An opinion is based on what one thinks and not what
one believes. Ones religion is what one believes.
Religion requires no thinking and in many cases
Religion forbids thinking.

While you might believe their are interchangeable
synonyms, I think if you asked an expert in the
English Language they might agree with me. The
words have different meanings and uses."
--------

">I didn't know there was a requirement to generate topics. Where did

Post by Bob Officer
you get that idiotic idea from. " -- Bob Officer

DK: Bob Officer is a member of the group I
DK; accurately describe as...
PSEUDO-SKEPTIC-FANATICS (PSF)
http://www.psicounsel.com/bobofficer.html

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Lu]

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set
a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given
the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post.In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.

BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

[&]

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.

Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

[Lu]

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to
set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of
medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate
pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air
containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to
set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the
control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test?
We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of
medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to
produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be
drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock
stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

I have the same trouble with getting enough sun light. I burn easy. I don’t
remember which doctor recommended I take the Vit. D but know it was not the
primary. I keep thinking an eye doctor but that doesn’t make sense because
he wants me to shield my eyes from the sun. He did recommend Lutein because
of developing Macular Degeneration. Lots of green leafy vegetables contain
Lutein but apparently not enough to help me. I love and eat ALL leafy green
vegetables all the time, with Beet Greens being my favorite and Spinach next
and exceptions of Turnip and mustard greens and dandelions. Lot of Vit. K.

Post by Bob Officer
Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold
in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Don’t think her visits to the local pub is that healthy either. Do you
suppose she has pretzels?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they
sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

Nothing like corn on the cob in January. Nuked in the husk. Love it and the
only place I see it is in the Farmers Market. We have a permanent all year
round one in a big store.

I don’t know much about GMO’s but if chemicals are involved I don’t
like it either.And yes, we have been managing/breeding animals and plants for
centuries. Nature has a hand in it too by forcing all plant and animal life
to adapt to its environment.

Post by Bob Officer
I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

I would say that dogs are the perfect example of this kind of forced
evolution.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

I have the same trouble with getting enough sun light. I burn easy. I don’t
remember which doctor recommended I take the Vit. D but know it was not the
primary. I keep thinking an eye doctor but that doesn’t make sense because
he wants me to shield my eyes from the sun. He did recommend Lutein because
of developing Macular Degeneration. Lots of green leafy vegetables contain
Lutein but apparently not enough to help me. I love and eat ALL leafy green
vegetables all the time, with Beet Greens being my favorite and Spinach next
and exceptions of Turnip and mustard greens and dandelions. Lot of Vit. K.

Post by Bob Officer
Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Don’t think her visits to the local pub is that healthy either. Do you
suppose she has pretzels?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

Nothing like corn on the cob in January. Nuked in the husk. Love it and the
only place I see it is in the Farmers Market. We have a permanent all year
round one in a big store.
I don’t know much about GMO’s but if chemicals are involved I don’t
like it either.And yes, we have been managing/breeding animals and plants for
centuries. Nature has a hand in it too by forcing all plant and animal life
to adapt to its environment.

Post by Bob Officer
I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

I would say that dogs are the perfect example of this kind of forced
evolution.

Cats also.

Cattle and pigs are carefully bred, today's modern cow bred for high fat
milk production produces not only much more milk than the cows of 200 years
ago, there is far more fat and protein in the milk.

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate
pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air
containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a
dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo
to
set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline.
Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and
one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the
control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat
what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do
you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and
the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a
test?
We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you
read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices
of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers
conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease
symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional
science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of
medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather
than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even
bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to
produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage
in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it
so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer.
If
the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened
to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of
tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least
understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time
you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be
drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against
disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for
profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock
stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage.
We
are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just
Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

I have the same trouble with getting enough sun light. I burn easy. I don’t
remember which doctor recommended I take the Vit. D but know it was not the
primary. I keep thinking an eye doctor but that doesn’t make sense because
he wants me to shield my eyes from the sun. He did recommend Lutein because
of developing Macular Degeneration. Lots of green leafy vegetables contain
Lutein but apparently not enough to help me. I love and eat ALL leafy green
vegetables all the time, with Beet Greens being my favorite and Spinach next
and exceptions of Turnip and mustard greens and dandelions. Lot of Vit. K.

Post by Bob Officer
Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is
sold
in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Don’t think her visits to the local pub is that healthy either. Do you
suppose she has pretzels?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they
sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and
rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook
more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the
world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare
it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education
that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

Nothing like corn on the cob in January. Nuked in the husk. Love it and the
only place I see it is in the Farmers Market. We have a permanent all year
round one in a big store.
I don’t know much about GMO’s but if chemicals are involved I don’t
like it either.And yes, we have been managing/breeding animals and plants for
centuries. Nature has a hand in it too by forcing all plant and animal life
to adapt to its environment.

Post by Bob Officer
I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

I would say that dogs are the perfect example of this kind of forced
evolution.

Cats also.
Cattle and pigs are carefully bred, today's modern cow bred for high fat
milk production produces not only much more milk than the cows of 200 years
ago, there is far more fat and protein in the milk.

Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate
pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air
containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to
set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline.
Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and
one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the
control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test?
We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of
medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same segment of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer.
If
the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she will but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage.
We
are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years of it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

I have the same trouble with getting enough sun light. I burn easy. I don’t
remember which doctor recommended I take the Vit. D but know it was not the
primary. I keep thinking an eye doctor but that doesn’t make sense because
he wants me to shield my eyes from the sun. He did recommend Lutein because
of developing Macular Degeneration. Lots of green leafy vegetables contain
Lutein but apparently not enough to help me. I love and eat ALL leafy green
vegetables all the time, with Beet Greens being my favorite and Spinach next
and exceptions of Turnip and mustard greens and dandelions. Lot of Vit. K.

Post by Bob Officer
Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold
in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Don’t think her visits to the local pub is that healthy either. Do you
suppose she has pretzels?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

Nothing like corn on the cob in January. Nuked in the husk. Love it and the
only place I see it is in the Farmers Market. We have a permanent all year
round one in a big store.
I don’t know much about GMO’s but if chemicals are involved I don’t
like it either.And yes, we have been managing/breeding animals and plants for
centuries. Nature has a hand in it too by forcing all plant and animal life
to adapt to its environment.

Post by Bob Officer
I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

I would say that dogs are the perfect example of this kind of forced
evolution.

Cats also.
Cattle and pigs are carefully bred, today's modern cow bred for high fat
milk production produces not only much more milk than the cows of 200 years
ago, there is far more fat and protein in the milk.

Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

Yes, the new breeds of laying hens and eating chickens ever seen a Goliath
Rex? They are huge. Then there is a New Jersy Giant they are an 8+ pound
bird. Then there are the commercial turkeys with giant breasts. About
20-30% more meat than the most of wild varieties.

[The Newest Other Guy]

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 02:21:08 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu
Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

Yes, the new breeds of laying hens and eating chickens ever seen a Goliath
Rex? They are huge. Then there is a New Jersy Giant they are an 8+ pound
bird. Then there are the commercial turkeys with giant breasts. About
20-30% more meat than the most of wild varieties.

HERE is your giant chicken (18 pounder)..

http://www.today.com/food/giant-chicken-ruffling-feathers-all-over-internet-t109417

[Lu]

Post by The Newest Other Guy
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 02:21:08 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu
Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

Yes, the new breeds of laying hens and eating chickens ever seen a Goliath
Rex? They are huge. Then there is a New Jersy Giant they are an 8+ pound
bird. Then there are the commercial turkeys with giant breasts. About
20-30% more meat than the most of wild varieties.

HERE is your giant chicken (18 pounder)..
http://www.today.com/food/giant-chicken-ruffling-feathers-all-over-internet-t1
09417

Yes, that is the one I just mentioned to Bob. Thanks.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by The Newest Other Guy
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 02:21:08 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu
Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

Yes, the new breeds of laying hens and eating chickens ever seen a Goliath
Rex? They are huge. Then there is a New Jersy Giant they are an 8+ pound
bird. Then there are the commercial turkeys with giant breasts. About
20-30% more meat than the most of wild varieties.

HERE is your giant chicken (18 pounder)..
http://www.today.com/food/giant-chicken-ruffling-feathers-all-over-internet-t1
09417

Yes, that is the one I just mentioned to Bob. Thanks.

Seen these chickens raised as youth projects for fairs.

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate
pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers
were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air
containing
high levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean
environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a
dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response,
it is accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo
to
set
a baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline.
Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and
one
group given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the
other
group given
the vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the
control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.

But she's the lunatic from down under, an embarrassment to all
inteligent life down there.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat
what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do
you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved
by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and
the
test as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a
test?
We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you
read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices
of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers
conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always
able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can
cure
disease.

Because there is no such proof?
One only wonders why she keeps at it.
Who is she hoping to convert?
No one wants anything to do with her nonsense.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease
symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional
science. I
just feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of
medical,advice,
simply because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather
than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even
bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to
produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do
have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with
the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage
in
every post. In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

She's sounds like a broken record on my 1960's protable record player.

Yes, a record with a big scratch on it that keeps playing the same
segment
of
the recording over and over again.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it
so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the
government.

Prove it.

When it gets to that point, she resorts to name-calling.
That's all she got in her portfolio.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they
keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked
for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains
experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo
is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer.
If
the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what
happened
to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

She doesn't want to admit that because she's have to develop a better
repertoire.

She can’t admit that she is wrong. She would rather die. Which she
will
but
her death will come sooner than need be for lack of good medical care.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of
tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least
understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time
you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be
drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

She has to define him that way.
Otherwise she's a sandwich short of a picnic.

We know.

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about
testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against
disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't
Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for
profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock
stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage.
We
are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just
Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

That's too much of a chore for her.

I don’t know about you but I first learned about good nutrition from
my
parents and grandparents. Then, I learned about it in school, 13 years
of
it.
Then from the doctors. Good, nutritious foods and diet for the health of
my
children. Information on nutrition was always available to us but became
more
prevalent with the growth of computer use. The difference between what
we
were taught and what Carole spouts is that we were and are told about
real
food, not supplements and yes, several have been recommended for me by
my
doctors.

There is no need to take a universal supplement. When supplements were
recommended to me is was because I wasn't getting enough sunlight sitting
inside all day. The weekend exposure wasn't enough especially during the
winter months when I drove to work in the dark and drove home in the dark.

I have the same trouble with getting enough sun light. I burn easy. I don’t
remember which doctor recommended I take the Vit. D but know it was not the
primary. I keep thinking an eye doctor but that doesn’t make sense because
he wants me to shield my eyes from the sun. He did recommend Lutein because
of developing Macular Degeneration. Lots of green leafy vegetables contain
Lutein but apparently not enough to help me. I love and eat ALL leafy green
vegetables all the time, with Beet Greens being my favorite and Spinach next
and exceptions of Turnip and mustard greens and dandelions. Lot of Vit. K.

Post by Bob Officer
Now I spend more time in the outdoors, I discontinued the supplement. I get
more than enough nutrients in my varied and balanced diet.

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is
sold
in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I doubt her diet is devoid of junk food.

Don’t think her visits to the local pub is that healthy either. Do you
suppose she has pretzels?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by &

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but
they
sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and
rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook
more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to
a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over
the
world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to
me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to
prepare
it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education
that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I am not sure if I will plant a vegetable garden this year. Or if we will
be away again. I usually hit the farmers market. I don't understand why
people are up in arms over GMOs. People have been breeding plants for
years. All GMOs have done was to allow the plant breeders to skip thousands
of generations of the steps in between.

Nothing like corn on the cob in January. Nuked in the husk. Love it and the
only place I see it is in the Farmers Market. We have a permanent all year
round one in a big store.
I don’t know much about GMO’s but if chemicals are involved I don’t
like it either.And yes, we have been managing/breeding animals and plants for
centuries. Nature has a hand in it too by forcing all plant and animal life
to adapt to its environment.

Post by Bob Officer
I have seen wild bananas, and know that mankind has been breeding them to
what we know as a banana today for over 1000's of years. Ever see wild
wheat? Oats? Other grains? How about some of the wild corn varieties? I
have and they do not resemble today's modern corn in the least.

I would say that dogs are the perfect example of this kind of forced
evolution.

Cats also.
Cattle and pigs are carefully bred, today's modern cow bred for high fat
milk production produces not only much more milk than the cows of 200 years
ago, there is far more fat and protein in the milk.

Chickens. I remember scrawny chickens when I was young.

Yes, the new breeds of laying hens and eating chickens ever seen a Goliath
Rex? They are huge. Then there is a New Jersy Giant they are an 8+ pound
bird. Then there are the commercial turkeys with giant breasts. About
20-30% more meat than the most of wild varieties.

Did you see that photo of the giant chicken that was making the rounds on FB?

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post.In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

The diet a young teenager needs to eat is different from an older person
and the older person needs to adjust his diet by their activity level.

There is no one universal diet.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I can see Carole really has never done any baking or food prep.

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I like our local farmers markets.
We tend to buy from the same venders week after week.

When we travel we like the markets, hitting them up often because the RV
has limited storage for fresh fruits and veggies. We keep a couple of small
ice chests with us and use them for extended storage when away from home.

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing
high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response,
it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to
set
a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group
given
the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice,
simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post.In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

The diet a young teenager needs to eat is different from an older person
and the older person needs to adjust his diet by their activity level.
There is no one universal diet.

Exactly.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I can see Carole really has never done any baking or food prep.

She uses her kitchen sink to create fake cell salts. BTW, has she mentioned
cellsalts since she started using sock puppets?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I like our local farmers markets.
We tend to buy from the same venders week after week.

I think our Framers Market is misnamed. It is really a huge fresh vegetable
and fruit store owned by one guy who has people stocking the counters and
clerks at cash registers ringing us out. They also sell some dairy products
and eggs, and a few other items, all at very reasonable prices. the place is
always mobbed.

Post by Bob Officer
When we travel we like the markets, hitting them up often because the RV
has limited storage for fresh fruits and veggies. We keep a couple of small
ice chests with us and use them for extended storage when away from home.

Like!

Oh my, look at that. I said I “like" something and did not get 30
supposedly related articles about fruits and vegetable markets popping up all
over this page. :D

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set
a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given
the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific" testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test? We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice, simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post.In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

The diet a young teenager needs to eat is different from an older person
and the older person needs to adjust his diet by their activity level.
There is no one universal diet.

Exactly.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I can see Carole really has never done any baking or food prep.

She uses her kitchen sink to create fake cell salts. BTW, has she mentioned
cellsalts since she started using sock puppets?

Several times.

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I like our local farmers markets.
We tend to buy from the same venders week after week.

I think our Framers Market is misnamed. It is really a huge fresh vegetable
and fruit store owned by one guy who has people stocking the counters and
clerks at cash registers ringing us out. They also sell some dairy products
and eggs, and a few other items, all at very reasonable prices. the place is
always mobbed.

I have seen a few specialty stores like that.

Our framers markets are usually sell the output of small farming
operations, or either late or early production. One of the venders, usually
hand picks local early cherries and the best red onions I have tasted.
(Sweet) while they have several 100s of acres of cherries, they have a
several rows of a variety which doesn't commercially pack well, they have
thin skinks and great for just eating.

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer
When we travel we like the markets, hitting them up often because the RV
has limited storage for fresh fruits and veggies. We keep a couple of small
ice chests with us and use them for extended storage when away from home.

Like!
Oh my, look at that. I said I “like" something and did not get 30
supposedly related articles about fruits and vegetable markets popping up all
over this page. :D

And I happen to like Usenet over Facebook. No ads.

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57:32 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 04:10:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC), Bob Officer

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate
pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while
given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were
later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air
containing
high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known
response,
it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to
set
a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then
the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one
group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group
given
the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a
control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the
control
group.

Poor old bob.

No, I am not poor old bob.
You constantly mistake what others have said, and endlessly repeat what
others say, when you do not understand what they said.
It has happened too often to be a simple error. I suspect you are a
pathological serial liar.

How a person hears something depends on their viewpoint.

Or Bias.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
He's been totally brainwashed by pharmaceutical thinking that
nutrients don't do anything useful.

I have never said that.

You'd make a good politician bob.
They like to talk around an issue without getting to the point.

Well I never said that. When you are caught in a simple lie, why do you
double down?

You Americans have some funny sayings.
"Double down" is American slang word having its origins in gambling.
Same as taking "a whole bunch" of something that you can't really
bunch, such as "a bunch of reasons".

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
The first step is to make sure that only the best "scientific"
testing
is done. 2nd step is to see that it isn't done which is achieved by
making testing extremely expensive to perform.

What I said was simply the value of the data is highly limited and the
test
as done has little on no value, because it was not properly
constructed.

We're not talking about testing bob.

Yes we are. Just why did you post about a journal article about a test?
We
are talking about a paper and the tests done in the paper. Did you read
the article in citation? I found fault with the method and practices of
people doing the testing and took exception with the papers conclusions.

Post by Duncan
What we're talking about is commonsense.

Why do you want to talk about common sense? You neither understand
common
sense nor do you use it.

Post by Duncan
Scientific testing can be manipulated many ways and isn't always able
to repeat its results.

Then it isn't scientific testing, is it?
Science is reproducible.
Alternative medicine claims is not reproducible.

Says big pharma.
Why do they hide all the tests that show nutrients can cure disease?

You haven’t proved that they hide any tests or that nutrients can cure
disease.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
3rd step is to suppress information and replace any disease symptoms
with "safe and effective" pharmaceutical drugs.

Many pharmaceutical drugs are actually based on nutritional science. I
just
feel idiots like you should not be given any sort of medical,advice,
simply
because you do not understand what you are talking about.

The problem with pharmaceutical drugs is that they are produced by
corrupt pharmaceutical cartel which is in it for the money rather than

That horse is dead Carole. Alternative medicine is produces even bigger
profits per unit than pharmaceutical medicine, and doesn't have to
produce
any proof of effectiveness.

I wouldn't know about that.
What I do know is that healthcare is a large part of any government's
budget. Pharmaceutical drugs do not improve overall health and do have
side effects, some worse than others.
Now we have the drive by big pharma to inflate the vaccine schedule.
There used to be just a few shots some years ago (1960s?) and now 50
or more and on the increase. Each shot costs maybe $70 and so becomes
a bit of a cash cow with no science behind it. There are no long-term
studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated, and there is growing
autism epidemic affecting 1 in 68 boys. Modern science hasn't got a
clue about the cause of autism except that it isn't caused by
vaccines, despite the fact that autism rates have been rising with the
vaccine schedule.

You are the only one who constantly repeats the same disproved garbage in
every post.In other words, you keep beating a dead horse.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
improving health. They have made laws to protect themselves and
increase profits. They can't be sued for vaccine damage and make it so

That's false.

No its not.
The pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines can't be sued.
Anybody who sues for vaccine damage gets a payout from the government.

Prove it.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
that cheaper alternatives can't be imported into US, while they keep
putting up prices. It is illegal to talk about any benefits of
alternatives and illegal to sell herbal remedies that cure cancer.

No but any and all claims have to have proof.

There is no evidence that alternatives work, because big pharma has
made up the rules on what constitutes evidence. So what has worked for
centuries as traditional medicine now gets called unproven science.
And all the time they keep using dangerous drugs that need to be
recalled from time to time, and chemo which still remains experimental
drug as it can't be proved to work. When they do the testing they
compare one form of chemo to another which is not the way a placebo is
supposed to work.

They can fake all the tests they want EXCEPT the test by the consumer. If the
product does not work no one will buy it. That is exactly what happened to
Alternative remedies. THEY DID NOT WORK.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
Then again you could consider sodium bicarbonate and cream of tartar a
nutritional treatment, because you,do not have the least understanding
of
biochemistry

Please excuse irrational argument. ESTJ's aren't known for their
rationality but rather adherence to authodoxy.

If I was a drinker I would make it a game to have a drink every time you
post that nonsense. We all get to take a drink! But then we would be
drunk
all the time.

It is well known fact that the myer briggs type ESTJ isn't one of the
rational types but rather is in the guardian category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
"Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing
their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most
developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator
(Protectors and Providers) or the Administrator (Inspector and
Supervisor)."
That's you bob. You want to monitor, control, "protect", inspect and
supervise.

NO, that is who YOU decided he is.

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Here we have bob repeating his pharmaceutical mantra about testing.
Whereas we all know that a proper diet is protective against disease
-- never hear it from bob though.

You do not have a glimmer of what a proper diet is or isn't Carole.

Do you?

Yes I do.

Is there any one particular diet that is best and why?

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
Does the government?

I believe that they do to some degree. But a universal diet is
impossible,
because everyone is different.

OK. I go along with that.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Duncan
If so, why do they allow supermarket aisles to be filled with food
that isn't proper?

Supermarkets are not controlled by the government. They are a for profit
business which are demand and supply businesses. They will not stock
stuff
which people do not buy or want.

Sure, but the government makes all sorts of rules over what is best
for people, somehow junk food gets a free run.

Michelle tried. Her nutritious lunches mostly ended up in the garbage. We are
FREE to buy, make or eat what we want including junk foods.
BTW, there is all kinds of information about nutritious diets. Just Google
“nutritious diet”. There are about 23,000,000 results.

The diet a young teenager needs to eat is different from an older person
and the older person needs to adjust his diet by their activity level.
There is no one universal diet.

Exactly.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
So what you're saying is that the government should dictate what is sold
in
grocery stores?

There should be more education on what is healthy and what isn't.
If the government really cared about keeping people healthy, they
would make junk food illegal.
Junk food - anything made with white flour, additives and sugar.

ROFL. Outlaw junk food.

I can see Carole really has never done any baking or food prep.

She uses her kitchen sink to create fake cell salts. BTW, has she mentioned
cellsalts since she started using sock puppets?

Several times.

wasn’t sure. She seems to have dropped cellsalts when she started with the
sock puppets.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Duncan

Post by Bob Officer
I would like to see bigger variety of veggies at the market, but they
sell
only what people will buy.
Yesterday, I had to go three different stores to find beets and rhubarb.
Why? Because most people do not really cook any more. I get to cook more
often now I am retired.

What is beets - is that the same as beetroot?
You can grow rhubarb pretty easily, get some through mail order and
grow your own.
I don't buy too much variety in fruit and veg - just stick mainly to a
few basics but am beginning to go organic since some veg are GMO such
as corn. I find that sometimes it is best to pay a little more for
quality.

You are missing out then. I buy fruits and vegetables from all over the world
at the farmers market. I talk to the people who put that unknown (to me)
fruit or vegetable in their carts and ask what it is and how to prepare it.
Then I take a small sample home and try it. Get a wonderful education that
way, meet new people and get to taste some wonderful foods.

I like our local farmers markets.
We tend to buy from the same venders week after week.

I think our Framers Market is misnamed. It is really a huge fresh vegetable
and fruit store owned by one guy who has people stocking the counters and
clerks at cash registers ringing us out. They also sell some dairy products
and eggs, and a few other items, all at very reasonable prices. the place is
always mobbed.

I have seen a few specialty stores like that.
Our framers markets are usually sell the output of small farming
operations, or either late or early production. One of the venders, usually
hand picks local early cherries and the best red onions I have tasted.
(Sweet) while they have several 100s of acres of cherries, they have a
several rows of a variety which doesn't commercially pack well, they have
thin skinks and great for just eating.

We have a few of what I would call Farmers Markets, where farmers have tables
or stands and usually collapsible canvas roofs over the stands from mid
summer to mid to end of the fall. A lot of them come in from Amish country in
PA. Their prices are higher then the permanent market I go to. I go for
strawberries and fresh corn on the cob. Gonna have an ear for supper in a few
minutes.

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer
When we travel we like the markets, hitting them up often because the RV
has limited storage for fresh fruits and veggies. We keep a couple of small
ice chests with us and use them for extended storage when away from home.

Like!
Oh my, look at that. I said I “like" something and did not get 30
supposedly related articles about fruits and vegetable markets popping up all
over this page. :D

And I happen to like Usenet over Facebook. No ads.

I was talking about just “liking" comments or or pictures made by other.
Every time I like something I get a list of other articles that are
supposedly related to the article I liked and something FB had decided I
might be interested in, too.

How do you get Usenet vial Facebook?

[Lu]

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.

In the opening sentence contains the words, may, some and suggests so I would
read the article as wishful thinking.

Post by Bob Officer
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.

[Bob Officer]

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer

Post by Eduardo M
B vitamins may offer some protection against particulate pollution, a
small human trial suggests.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39231896

I won't set much store in this study.

In the opening sentence contains the words, may, some and suggests so I would
read the article as wishful thinking.

Yes, and like I said of very little value.

Post by Lu

Post by Bob Officer
"Ten volunteers were tested initially exposed to clean air while given a
placebo to measure their basic responses. The same volunteers were later
tested with large doses of B vitamins while exposed to air containing high
levels of PM2.5."
So they were tested and given a placebo in the clean environment.
Then they were given large doses of vitamin Bs and liven in a dirty
environment.
They changed two variables at once.
Where is the control group?
Yes this study appears to have been designed around a known response, it is
accurate? Maybe? Is it meaningful? No.
A meaningful test might have had clean air tests with no placebo to set a
baseline. then clean air with a placebo so a second baseline. Then the
group was split into three different groups in the dirty air and one group
given nothing, a second group given a placebo and the other group given the
vitamin B.
That test would have had meaning, it set a baseline and had a control
group, and allowed for comparisons against a baseline and the control
group.